When family relationships break down, the impact can extend well beyond personal matters, putting the future of a family enterprise at risk. In this episode of Beyond Succession, host, Leah Tolton, is joined by Patricia Hebert, a collaborative family lawyer, mediator and child advocate, to explore how collaborative family law can protect business continuity, preserve family wealth and sustain long-term legacy during separation or divorce.
Together, they discuss how this non-adversarial approach empowers families to resolve disputes while preserving what matters most—from operating companies and investment portfolios to intergenerational plans and shared values. They also examine how pre- and postnuptial agreements can be used proactively to minimize conflict and protect family assets. This episode offers practical strategies for navigating family change without compromising your family enterprise's future.
Transcript
Patricia Hebert: [00:00:00] One unique thing we do in collaborative family law is early on in the process we find out from the parties what their big picture goals are, and then we try to actually meet them instead of just applying the law and dividing things up. So people always tell me, my employees are important to me. I want the business to keep operating. I don't want to have to lay off an employees, or I wanna be able to continue to do some of the things that my family, along with my parents maybe had planned to do in terms of how we've structured, uh, our family finances. So having those goals. As our guiding principles in the collaborative process for both parties is really unique.
Leah Tolton: [00:00:39] Welcome to Beyond Succession, a podcast series within the Bennett Jones Business Law Talks podcast that discusses topics around navigating the complexities of the family enterprise. I'm Leah Tolton, partner at Bennett Jones, LLP, and I'm a family enterprise and corporate lawyer. Passionate about helping family enterprise businesses navigate the complexities of governance, succession and growth.
Before we begin this podcast, please note that anything said or discussed on this podcast does not constitute legal advice. Always seek proper advice from your legal advisor as every situation is different and outcomes can vary. In this episode, we're diving into the world of collaborative family law and the option it presents in safeguarding family enterprises.
A family enterprise extends far beyond a typical family business. It encompasses the family shared values, financial assets, heirlooms, and philanthropic pursuits when conflict arises. Navigating these complex dynamics requires a thoughtful approach that preserves relationships, protects. Legacies and ensures the wellbeing of future generations.
Joining me today is Patricia Hebert, a Bruyer Mackay in Edmonton, a collaborative family lawyer, mediator, and child advocate with decades of experience guiding families through high conflict cases. We'll explore how the collaborative law process, along with advanced agreements such as pre and postnuptial agreements, can provide family enterprises with the stability and clarity they need to thrive even in times of change.
Trish, welcome to the podcast.
Patricia Hebert: [00:02:29] Thank you having me, Leah. I'm happy to be here. I love talking about collaborative family law, so thanks for having me.
Leah Tolton: [00:02:35] Trish, when I think about a family enterprise, I think about maybe a structure that involves a lot of things. It could involve a company that actually carries out the business.
It could maybe involve a company that has some real estate in it. Uh, there might be some financial investments at stake. There could be some things that people expect to inherit. Some people, you may have some charitable interests in there, and I expect that this is the kind of structure that you have experience dealing with in your practice.
Patricia Hebert: [00:03:04] Yes, absolutely. As I like to say, families are special and families when they come to us, uh, either for some proactive planning that we're gonna talk about or, uh, at the end of a marital relationship. They still have all of those things. They still have all of those goals and needs and interests and complexities and so we see it all, uh, when we assist people in their division of their family assets at the end of a relationship.
Leah Tolton: [00:03:29] You know, from that perspective, maybe you could walk us through what collaborative family law entails. How it differs from traditional litigation and mediation.
Patricia Hebert: [00:03:39] Yes, for sure. So, um, again, because families are special, I think we're coming to understand or have over the last, you know, probably 20 years or so, that we really need to move past the old ways of, um, dealing with family separation and divorce for so many reasons.
The main one being of course, that we're impacting children, and I could talk all day about that, but we're gonna talk about the fact that their parents often have financial concerns. They have businesses, they have plans, they have intentions around their finances that are also impacted by family separation.
So the old way of doing it, which is sort of tacking it on to a civil litigation sort of a strategy to just act as if these two parties are strangers to each other and we can just carry out some math to divide their financial interests. Just doesn't make sense. It never really did. But now we're moving forward in, in looking at really different ways of resolving family separation so that we're not making it look like a civil dispute between two strangers or people who purely have business interests with each other.
So. Collaborative Family law evolved to address that and what we do in collaborative family law is a completely unique process where people sign an agreement that says, we know we don't need a judge to make decisions for us. We're gonna make our decisions together. We're gonna need some help with making those decisions.
We're gonna need some guidance. But the foundation of collaborative family law is that the parties continue to be in charge, and they continue to steer the direction of all of their decisions with the assistance of their collaborative family, lawyers, and other experts that we may bring into the team if they need some support in different areas.
So the idea is we know ahead of time there's going to be no court. We're going to resolve it by working together and mm-hmm I say collaboratively, but that really just means open, honest, joint decision making and that we're going to do that as a team until we get the whole agreement across the finish line.
So it makes it really different than the old model of negotiating things, but we'll ask a judge to make decisions as soon as we hit a speed bump, which is, um, just not effective for families.
Leah Tolton: [00:05:45] You know, I see that there could be a lot of advantages here, you know, for family enterprises as well. You know, a lot of these families have invested a great deal of, you know, time, treasure, effort in making these operating companies successful and accumulating all of those assets.
Do you think, or do you have a reason why you think that this collaborative law process could be really effective for those kinds of enterprises?
Patricia Hebert: [00:06:07] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for all families, people want less stress. They want better outcomes for themselves, for their kids. They wanna be responsible for cost and efficiency.
But for family enterprises, we have some additional needs or interests that can be really well served by a collaborative. Process because people want to keep their family enterprise functioning as well as it possibly can as well. Mm-hmm. So if they're in a going concerned business, they want the business to be able to continue in most cases.
One unique thing we do in collaborative family laws early on in the process, we find out from the parties what their big picture goals are, and then we try to actually meet them instead of just applying the law and dividing things up. So people always tell me. My employees are important to me. I want the business to keep operating.
I don't want to have to lay off an employee's, I don't wanna close up shop, or I wanna be able to continue to do some of the things that my family, along with my parents maybe had planned to do in terms of how we've structured, uh, our family finances. So having those goals. As our, our guiding, um, principles in the collaborative process for both parties is really unique, and it allows us to try to tailor a solution in a unique way to that particular goal and outcome.
So as you can imagine, when people enter into a separating spouses, they may have some conflict and trust is broken down and they're challenged as far as that spousal relationship. But we understand that in collaborative family law, we don't pretend that those emotions don't exist. And instead we say, how are we going to move forward in a new way?
How do we deal with the emotions? But also move forward and allow the family enterprise, whatever it may be, whatever it looks like, to continue in the best way possible. What's the win-win that's available for both the parties and allows things to be impacted as minimally, uh, as possible? Certainly not negatively as it might be if there had to be, you know, some sort of a forced sale or any of the other things that we see in family separation when there wasn't advanced planning or when the parties aren't making decisions for themselves.
Leah Tolton: [00:08:08] And as I think about this, you know, I, I started this conversation, you know, describing a fairly complicated business arrangement, you know, that might have a number of different companies or a number of different interests, but I'm hearing you describe a situation where a collaborative family process could actually be applied specifically to the people who are involved in the dispute. And those people may not be the only owners, right? They may not be the only people who are stakeholders. And so would it be fair to say that this is actually a way to create some, not only for the couple that finds itself in this situation, but maybe also for the business organization as well?
Patricia Hebert: [00:08:46] Absolutely. So certainty in that the parties will make all the decisions about their rights and responsibilities as against each other, but they're also going to participate more thoughtfully in how they have a role in the bigger picture, so that they have an opportunity to say, these are the kinds of things that the family enterprise is interested in.
What are the, what are those interests that also need to come to the table? And that looks really different than it would look in in another kind of process, because if that's important to the person who is continuing with the business or to both of the parties, it's gonna be front and center in our conversation.
I assure you, having litigated these things in the past, that's really a very little interest to a court. The court is you either agree on what you're gonna do with this asset, or we're gonna sell it, and you're gonna divide the spoils, right? And there really isn't a lot of subtlety, and they don't have the time opportunity nor interest, nor legislative responsibility to come up with those creative solutions that allow people to keep.
Going what they want to keep going, to preserve what is important to them to preserve and to just find the way to share the value that they might need to, or to move forward in a new way, and really thinking outside the box and coming up with solutions that do incorporate their own interests and their extended families interests when those are important to the parties as well.
Leah Tolton: [00:10:01] One of the things that I see very often in family enterprises, particularly those that have had a long corporate life, is that, uh, something that's really important to the family members who are involved is this concept of legacy, right? And being able to preserve what has been created for the benefit of future generations. You know, it sounds to me like this process is. One way that could be used in order to preserve that legacy for the benefit of the family, even if the divorcing couple finds itself in a situation where it must resort to the process.
Patricia Hebert: [00:10:31] Yeah, absolutely. And I know we're gonna talk in a few minutes about some other strategies to, um, preserve legacy and to minimize those impacts. But if you don't have an agreement that we'll be talking about and you instead find one of the parties in, in an extended family going through a separation. Collaborative keeps them in charge of making those decisions, which is so key. It doesn't expose any of their information to a public domain. It, it remains confidential.
Any ideas or strategies as well as any disclosure remains confidential to the process, which allows the parties to really think creatively and then to bring in those other concerns, you know, what's important to their mom, who is passing on this wealth and wants to, um, ensure that it's handled in a, that's a valid interest that comes to.
And as part of the conversation and allows the parties to creatively come up with solutions that meet those as best as possible. And it allows a really different kind of carving of the pie in ways that the parties on their own might not think of, and certainly that the law doesn't necessarily prepare us for, but working together along with other, um, either natural helpers, the party's accountant, the, you know, whatever information might be available.
With our own neutral independent experts that bring knowledge to the parties collectively, really puts them in the best position they can possibly be in to come up with a solution that honors that legacy and doesn't dismantle it or cause the trajectory to shift, or, you know, in the worst case scenario, causes investments to have to be completely, uh, folded to be available for distribution, which was not the the long-term intention.
Leah Tolton: [00:12:08] Right. So let's talk a bit about some of those specific tools that we can use. You know, maybe before we get to this point, to preserve legacy. You know, and I think, uh, a concept that a lot of our listeners would be familiar with would be the concept of a prenuptial agreement or maybe even a postnuptial agreement.
What are the key considerations for family enterprise clients when we're drafting those kinds of agreements? Maybe you can speak to what they can accomplish, what they're supposed to do, and how they might apply specifically to family enterprises.
Patricia Hebert: [00:12:37] Broadly in my experience to start with, people generally are not very aware of the rights and entitlements that they're entering into when they begin living with a partner or when they marry a partner.
And in Alberta, uh, those two things are the same. If, uh, someone lives together for long enough, uh, under it's three years, or, um, if they have a child together or if they later marry, they are going to be following the same rules that. Once they're, they, they meet those criteria. All of their assets that they're accumulating going forward become joint family assets.
Unless they meet a very narrow description of exemptions under the legislation, things like gifts or inheritances might be exempt. The challenge becomes when we're not passing things down in a way that make meets exemptions, but we still want to have some protections for those particular assets. So people need to be aware what the law would provide for them if they did not have an agreement, and then be aware what their strategies might be to carry out their overall intentions in an agreement and use an agreement instead of having the law apply to them exactly as it might work for word there still has to be fairness.
There still has to be due process. We have process requirements to ensure that everybody involved gets independent legal advice. Has enough information about the decisions that they're making to understand what the agreement says. So those key considerations would be we can decide in advance what to do with certain types of assets so that we don't expose them to risk upon the end of a relationship that they would have to be, um, you know, potentially sold or divided or encumbered in some way that impacts those broader goals, uh, in a negative way.
Leah Tolton: [00:14:19] Can those agreements also extend to things that might occur outside of, you know, a conflictual situation like you're describing? Like, can we address things like the transition of ownership of of, of shares, of a family, business, or decision making structures.
Patricia Hebert: [00:14:39] In these agreements, uh, there, there are certain things we specifically focus on in these agreements, and then there are some that might be better placed into a, something like a unanimous shareholders agreement, for example.
So the, the structure I usually stick with and describe it to clients is to say that this agreement is going to apply if the two of you separate. While living. So the, uh, those are our boundaries. So if one of you passes away, we're going to look to your estate planning to determine what the distribution of your estate will be while your relationship is still intact.
There might be some limitations, because we might say in our agreement, for example, that you're not going to bring any claim against your spouse's estate outside of whatever they may have. Provided for you and their will so that we're really following everyone's intentions about where their estate will be distributed, but for the most part in a family agreement, for it to qualify as a family agreement, we're identifying that if the spouses separate while living, these are the rules we're going to follow.
And if it's purely about what to do in relation to, um, the ownership of corporate share, there might be a different mechanism to deal with that that might be more, more appropriate.
Leah Tolton: [00:15:46] Yeah, that makes sense. And so then you know, someone like you and someone like me would work together and then your agreement would say, here is what will happen to property if you separate while living.
Any unanimous shareholder agreement that a corporate lawyer would draft would refer to what happens in respect of transfer of shares in a variety of situations, how decisions are made in a variety of situations. And it might refer to certain events that would change the rules. Uh, for example, if a separation occurred or things like that in order to make sure that there's consistency in management of the business, right?
Patricia Hebert: [00:16:18] And so your, your spousal agreement is going to be one piece of the puzzle that covers the field. What happens when you separate? What happens when you want to liquidate or sell shares? What happens if one of the parties pass away? We wanna make sure that we have. Each of those bases covered to have, uh, really reduce the risk overall to the family enterprise that something's gonna be to, to happen that wasn't as planned.
Leah Tolton: [00:16:41] Right. So let's, let's bring this to reality. Have you got an example or a story that you might. Be able to share or an advanced agreement like this or a collaborative approach helped avoid long-term legal battles and preserve to family's legacy. Is there anything you can share?
Patricia Hebert: [00:17:00] I, I have, unfortunately, I have more examples of how it, I wish there had been an agreement. What the impact was in that situation rather than whether there had been an agreement. But I can, I certainly have examples of where agreements have been successful. Um, I did one for family where there was going to be a transition of a business from first generation to the second five siblings.
They all entered into agreements. Part of the benefit of having a plan for all of the siblings or cousins, as the case may be to enter into, so ownership of their joint family enterprise is not going to be impacted because one of their siblings or cousins ends up in a divorce. And then suddenly those share are needing to be held in trust to be sold, uh, for the benefit of a spouse.
So it provides some certainty and I, it also gives that first generation, I think more, uh, more faith in the strategies that they're using to pass on that wealth. Because sometimes the way to do. Are at odds with the way to protect things if they were passed on to a family. So my example always is, you know, if grandma's China is passed on to the granddaughter and a family separation happens, she'd keep the China that is clearly something that was a gift to her as an inheritance or, or a living gift.
Mm-hmm. In tax planning for, for the purposes of passing down wealth, it's not a great idea to leave things to go as an inheritance. Mm-hmm. Or to leave things as a gift and not instead plan more intentionally to share it in a different way that may minimize the tax and may, um, right. You know, create those other structures.
But those steps might take it out of being exempt as family property. And so in the example I mentioned, the first generation was. Extremely generous with the second generation because they'd all entered into these agreements. They knew that there would be a linear transition of wealth, and in fact, one of the parties, their relationship did break down immediately afterwards, but they had a very straightforward process to do their family division and their separation because they had already identified what their strategy would be to address those assets.
Less time, energy costs. Up with their resolution at the end of the day because their agreement had already laid out, uh, how many of the things would be dealt with.
Leah Tolton: [00:19:19] And, you know, I've actually seen it happen in, in family enterprises that it makes it easier to have the conversation about let's, you must sign a prenuptial agreement if it's expected in the family.
It's not personal to the particular bride or groom that's marrying in, this is what we do in this group and this is why. And you know, it's about, uh, wealth that was transferred maybe to us from someone else. We'd like it to go on to another generation. Uh, how you choose to arrange your affairs between you in respect of your own property is completely up to you, but in respect of things that relate to this particular family business, this is how the family does it, and welcome to the family.
Patricia Hebert: [00:20:02] Right? It makes it a little easier to say that for sure, that it's part of intentional, thoughtful, good planning. Uh, and it minimizes tax again, because you can use those other strategies without, and it creates, uh, clarity and certainty for the parties involved.
And it doesn't have to be personal. It's not about, you know, the person that this one sibling or cousin, uh, is maybe entering into a relationship with. It's just don't we all have those examples in our lives and lives. I have many of them 'cause I do this all day long. For folks who, you know, as soon as some wealth comes into the family, there's a separation.
And then yeah, there is a battle over those dollars and how they were distributed and there's a lot of cost and time and aggravation, and it does potentially negatively impact the other extended family members who also mm-hmm. Have an interest in that asset. So it's really about, you know, it's, it's like having a will. None of us really wanna think a lot about when we die, but we've learned that it's smart. Have a will and to plan for that possibility. We're also planning for that possibility in family cases because, you know, relationships do break down and it's simply wise to have some strategy in place that will minimize potential.
Should that happen and in a thoughtful way where everybody is transparent and upfront in advance and it's not, it's not sneaky, it's not, you know, we have, uh, make, make sure that it's done in a way that both parties know what they're entering into and that they both feel comfortable with the outcome, and then it's gonna save them so much more, uh, time and grief and energy if there is a separation. I always say to people, I, I'm gonna help you with this document, and then I hope you never need it. I hope you tuck it away in a drawer and move on with your life and forget. But in the event that you do, uh, it's also going to be there to help and support you.
Leah Tolton: [00:21:46] Let's talk a little bit now about the specifics of how this all works.
So, you know, you've talked about how the parties sign an agreement about how they're going to share information, how they're going to work together on solutions, how they're going to avoid court, etcetera. I expect given the life circumstances in which people find themselves at the time, that there may be things going on there that may extend beyond the legal realm.
And you've also mentioned. In this conversation, you know, resort to some independent experts. And so I expect that, you know, collaborative family law does involve bringing in some external experts to contribute. Can you share examples of how those pe those parties who are not legal advisors, maybe financial contributors, may mental health experts may have contributed to reaching a sustainable resolution?
Patricia Hebert: [00:22:33] Absolutely. Yeah. You know, trusting the person who was supposed to be your person in life can be difficult when that has broken down. And, uh, in collaborative family law, we really acknowledge that and we accept that there are gonna be challenges in rebuilding the relationship to go forward, either in a financial relationship, if there's a continuing one, or in a relationship as co-parents, which is of course, so process builds trust.
Teach people that we're going to make commitments here, then we're going to keep them, we're gonna disclose openly and we are going to use those experts to support us in that process. And we, as a single expert, for, for the most part, there are opportunities to work, to use experts that also, you know, work in coordination with each other.
So in a financial circumstance, for example, we would have, if we needed some advice on the value of a business, we would have. A certified business evaluator who is also trained in the collaborative family law process, who understands the special thing that we're trying to do here, who could review documents, collect information, provide feedback to the parties about a potential value of that business, and about strategies to address the distribution of the value, um, in a way that meets the party's goals and interests.
And it's one expert so that we're not an. They're responsible to both parties so that we're not in that old fashioned adversarial system where my expert disagrees with your expert. And we pay them both a lot of money. And then we're going to have to go through a process of, you know, arguing about whose expert is right, or having a judge pick one. We have a joint expert and they will just transparently sit down with the parties and explain, this is what I think is the most reasonable, uh, decision about this issue. And this is the information that I have so far. And they'll help us. Whether it's providing a family property statement that says here's how each of the parties might hold assets at the end of the day, or information about business, uh, business value. I mean, sometimes it's about determining income for the parties because people who are involved in family enterprises often don't have straightforward income, uh, understanding, like we like to have in family law.
They just have, you know, we just look at their, their line item on their tax return. It's more complex than that for many people. So we also might need some assistance in determining income and that neutral person is available to meet with us and to join in those meetings, to have those conversations so that everyone knows why we're making the decision that we are, how we get to the end outcome and the end decision, and they can trust that that has been an open and fair and impartial process to come up with that decision.
And we really feel that we have faith in people. To make their own good decisions if they have good information and the right environment to make those decisions. So they're supported, they get the information they need, and then it's much easier to say yes then I agree that's the value. I agree with these strategies to go forward, um, and it saves them from having to have someone else make that decision for them.
Leah Tolton: [00:25:26] So it sounds as though this approach, you know, you, you, you've spoken about trust, so it sounds like this approach creates an environment that minimizes fear and builds trust so that you know, spouses can hopefully. Work through their differences or at least work through a process that recognizes their differences and allows them to work together in sharing their wealth, whether that is comprised in the family enterprise or, or otherwise.
Patricia Hebert: [00:25:51] Yes, absolutely. And it's, it's why I came to family law or to collaborative law really is. The way that we had have done family law traditionally for children just does not work and has not been good outcomes for them. We say that we're acting in their best interests, but the way in which we get there often is very harmful for children.
We know that conflict and exposure to trauma is, uh, detrimental to the development of children's brains, and we know that parental separation is a risk factor. So, and even for adult children. They want their parent to be okay. They want both their parents to be okay. They want them to be getting along, they want them to be able to, to work together.
Um, so we, we want to build trust. We wanna avoid conflict. We use active strategies to deal with those things. We might even talk about what messaging are we going to give to the kids, and that might be the subject on one of our meetings. In a, in the collaborative family law process, what do our adult children need to know?
About what we're doing in our separation process. What do our young children need to know? What messaging do we want them to have so that they're on the same page? We include children where appropriate, making sure that we're hearing back from them about things that impact them. Um, so the kids being okay, both our process and the outcome being good for kids is so important.
Um. We know that parents tell us that that's what's most important for them, but they sometimes get lost in knowing the best way to get there, and they get lost in their conflict and focus on that rather than on those positive outcomes for their kids. So I think that's really critical for people to understand is that this process.
It's not necessarily easy, but this is going to be one of the best processes you can use to ensure that we build that trust. You can continue to work together potentially, you can continue to work together as co-parents, uh, as well as you can if you commit to a process like this.
Leah Tolton: [00:27:41] Right now, in addition to your collaborative law practice, you're also an educator and an advocate for legal reform, and you've, you know, spoken during your remarks here about how the adversarial process is not really a functional way, certainly to deal with matters involving children, and quite frankly, in dividing property as well.
What do you see as the biggest barriers to adopting collaborative family law, if any?
Patricia Hebert: [00:28:06] Uh, I think people really blow up their spousal conflict. Uh, into something that permeate, permeates all their interactions with their former spouse or partner. Collaborative family law helps by really recognizing that that's a real thing.
You've had conflict. You're in a difficult spot. You have trust has broken down, but we're gonna shift that and say, now moving forward. How do we get you through that emotionally? How do we get the two of you through that? We acknowledge and deal with emotions we say, sounds like you could benefit maybe from someone to talk to about those things that you're struggling with.
So something that gets in the way is that people still have an idea and it's sort of like the US TV show idea that somebody should pack a bag and get out of the house when the parties decide to separate, and then somehow it all gets worked out in some other way, some in some distant realm that we don't get to see.
Just doesn't look like that. We want people to be in charge of their lives and help guide them through the sticky parts. They're gonna make decisions about who's gonna keep the home and about where the kids are going to go and how, where they're going to live. Maybe they're making decisions about who will stay in the business or whether they can continue to work together, whatever it is.
We'll identify those goals, find a strategy to work on them. To support them. And I, so I think the biggest challenge is that people don't know that a holistic solution is out there. Mm-hmm. So instead they think they're just, their default is that somehow divorces happen at courthouses, and that's just really not, the message we're trying to convey is that like anything in their lives, they can take charge, they can get the support and help that they need, and you know, the 1980s TV shows.
Leah Tolton: [00:29:53] So in, I'm, I'm gonna ask you now for your final reflections, and I think maybe you've already touched upon this point, but, you know, with that in mind, with, with the, the barriers in mind in terms of perception and long standing, uh, stereotypes that apply to our ideas of what happens when parties divorce, what advice would you give to families considering collaborative law for their enterprise related agreements.
Patricia Hebert: [00:30:18] I think the single most important decision you make when you're separating people all have their their theories about this. What's the most important decision you'll make? Gosh. Is it if I leave the house? Is it No. The single most important decision you'll make is who your lawyer is that assists you, because depending on who that is, you may get steered toward a more adversarial way of doing things, or you may get steered towards a more.
Peace building way to do things. So the single greatest takeaway I can give is to consider collaborative family law. Um, go to collaborative practice can and read about it. 'cause that's where you can find out what the heck this thing is in some detail and some of the things that I've described. And it takes two to be in this collaborative process. So the greatest thing that you can do is invite your spouse to consider the possibility of moving forward in a way where there is less conflict and grief, and where you work together to make decisions. So they also would need to go to collaborativepractice.ca and if they want to go and have a conversation with a lawyer, please just pick one on the list that's there of the collaboratively trained lawyers. For one thing, you're going to get a more highly trained family lawyer. We don't have specialists in law in Alberta. Some places do. We don't. But if you're on the collaborative list, you're trained as a mediator.
You're trained in interest based negotiation as well as the collaborative process and expressed an interest in doing this type of work. So that's the best we're gonna get as far as having lawyers that are really focused their practice and. They would at least have a conversation or a consultation with a collaborative family lawyer, and they hear some of the things that I've described today about why it might be a preferable approach for them.
Once they have that connection and they have a a, a lawyer who would assist them, it's much easier to imagine what the process would look like. If your spouse goes to the fellow on the corner who did your real estate transaction, who doesn't do much family law, and says, well, I'll draft up your statement of claim and really thinks about it in in old fashioned ways, then you may be, you may be stuck with that approach.
So the best advice I can give is to consult a collaborative lawyer and encourage your spouse to do the same. You're not dictating anything about what the decisions are gonna be or the direction it's gonna go, but the process that you choose to use and the people that assist you with that are so impactful on you having a good outcome.
Leah Tolton: [00:32:39] So are there any specific steps that you recommend other than, you know, going to the website you referred to and considering a collaborative family practitioner? Are there any other things that people can do to prepare for a collaborative family law process to ensure the best possible outcome?
Patricia Hebert: [00:32:55] Sure. If they've had a consultation with a collaborative family lawyer, we all have access to lots of resources to share with clients and have a look at those resources. Very helpful, um, to get that preparation in place. We also have on the website, but we may have others outside of the website, um, additional professionals to consult with. So before you even get started, for example, there are divorce coaches.
And this is a growing, um, area in industry. There are some that are excellent, ensure that they're well trained and, you know, have a, a significant background as far as their mental health education, uh, as a mental health therapist or support those coaches can really help someone get their head on straight to enter into that negotiation process.
Start to do some of that emotional processing work that I mentioned before to be able mm-hmm. The table, because we know that we don't really think with our, the math part of our brain. Yeah. When they're upset and stressed, we're Yeah. Taking that fight or flight. And it really will help people get their head on straight if they consider working with a coach, consulting a collaborative family lawyer early on. Doing that reading, so that negotiation process with their head clear and they can be efficient.
Leah Tolton: [00:34:10] I, I'm thinking as I hear this conversation that, you know, some people may hear about all the people who need to be involved. I may think, oh my gosh, this will cost a lot. But I think you got to the point at the end that I was hoping that I could explore with you, which is that if you can take advantage of some of these, uh, supports in order to deal with the things that are difficult, the emotionally difficult parts, you might actually find yourself in a position where your legal parts actually go more smoothly. Is that a good guess?
Patricia Hebert: [00:34:40] Exactly right. Not a guess at all. That's exactly right. Working with a coach who is generally less expensive than your collaborative family lawyer can get you in a spot where you are much more ready to participate and move forward. And we take much less time in meetings.
We get sometimes parties who are triggered and have to take a lot of breaks or who don't. Provide their disclosure because they're really hung up on some emotional issues around, uh, what's happening. It doesn't even, the, the consequence doesn't even look like the cause Sometimes it's disconnected and we think, why is my client not being as engaged in this process as I need them to be and it's because they haven't processed something or dealt with something and we'll get there eventually.
But being proactive with a coach, again, less expensive than your family lawyer. We'll help you get your, your head on straight and will absolutely save you money and time and grief in your process if you're more prepared to, to move forward with your collaborative process. When you do get in those meetings with, uh, with your, your spouse and the other lawyer.
Everybody's on the same page. Everybody's working towards solutions more effectively.
Leah Tolton: [00:35:44] That is terrific advice. Trish. We could go on and on. I think there are a number of, you know, branches of this conversation we'd, we could explore further. But I think I'll end our conversation there with my thanks for, you know, coming on the podcast and speaking to us about this important topic.
I think you have provided just a wealth of wisdom and advice and information that people can take away and, and action right away. And I just. I want to thank you for your time and for your contributions.
Patricia Hebert: [00:36:11] Thanks so much for having me, Leah. It was my absolute pleasure.
Leah Tolton: [00:36:15] Thanks for joining me on this episode of Beyond Succession, a series within the Bennett Jones Business Law Talks podcast.
Make sure to hit the follow button on whatever platform you are listing from. So you get notified whenever we release new episodes. Also, don't hesitate to reach out if you have any questions about challenges or issues that you are facing in your family enterprise. Take care. I'll catch you in our next episode.
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